Kevon Cheung: How to develop an audience for (and by) building in public

Transcript of episode 21

Matthias:
Hello, dear listeners of the Audience Explorer podcast. This is Matthias again with another episode. This time, my guest is Kevon Cheung from Hong Kong. Hi, I’m so happy to see you today!

Kevon:
Hi, Matthias. Thank you for having me. Yeah, like to connect online.

Matthias:
Yeah, me too. I’m quite excited about this. We meet in video; almost in person. I wanted to say in person, but it’s with video. We are six hours and six time zones apart, but it’s always amazing to see someone where you had already so long the context or the contact on Twitter; contact and context. Yes.

Kevon:
Definitely.

Matthias:
So, I’m happy to have you here. Kevon, to introduce you a little bit to our listeners, tell us a little bit what you do. What’s your back story? How you came to do what you do on Twitter with all this amazing stuff that you do today? Tell us a little bit about your story.

How Kevon found his “building in public” audience

Kevon:
Yeah. So, the story could be quite long, but I would try to keep it short. Basically, my whole career, like I think nine, ten years long, I have been in startups. I was always running startup. I was either the first-person CEO or the second person, right?

And what happened was in 2020 – Oh, it’s last year – I was running the startup that is venture backed. So, I had a bunch of angel investors. And I was at a position where because of COVID, all the plans had to change. And on one side, I had to figure out the product-market fit, which is super hard, right? We all know that.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
And then on the other hand, I had to deal with a lot of expectations from the investors. So, what happened was I decided to actually take a step back. So, that was October 2020; about a year ago.

So, I didn’t know what to do. My baby was about to be born. So, I was like, “Let’s just take a break. Let me just figure things out, maybe for two or three months and see where things go.” But I’m the type of person that I cannot do nothing.

So, I started to work on something new. And I came across a blog post from someone saying, “Writing online is the best way to figure yourself out” and I like that so much! So, I started to write all my failures, all my struggles in blogpost format, and I post it online.

Matthias:
Okay.

Kevon:
And of course, not many people read it; maybe 20-30 people read each piece. And that’s when I had this moment of, “Ah, I need to create a bigger piece of content so that I could become like a go-to person for a topic, so that I could build up my credibility and reputation online.” Because I ran startup, but no one knows me on the internet. That’s very sad.

So, to keep going, I found a couple of keywords online that I’m passionate about. And at that point, it was no-code, Micro-SaaS and then Building in Public.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
So, I did some simple research and no-code, and Micro-SaaS was very popular. So, the data tells me, “Hey, Kevon, go for it.” But then when I look at Building in Public, I resonate with it so much because it’s my life principle; like being honest, being vulnerable, being open. It’s just me! It’s just how I live my life.

Matthias:
That’s great.

Kevon:
So, I thought, “Yeah, I thought, that’s very exciting.” So, I started writing about it.

Matthias:
And how did you get these keywords? Did you get them from your ideas or from search queries, or what was it? What was the way to get these keywords?

Kevon:
So, when I first got online, I didn’t know where to start. So, the first place is find a community that I feel belonged to. And that was indiehackers.com. Even though my first job was a software engineer, but I haven’t coded in like seven eight years. So, I don’t call myself a coder.

But then Indie Hackers has expanded to like entrepreneurs in general who are “indie”: independent and one-man band. And I just love how people have this mindset. And after my venture back’s experience, I just want to be a bootstrapped one-man band for now.

So, I went on indiehackers.com and basically all the keywords came from there.

Matthias:
Ah, I see. Yeah. It was the same for me. I also started in 2020 with the last endeavor. Also, on Indie Hackers. I find it a great community. People are very supportive of each other and try to do something good for this world. And yeah, it’s really an amazing community.

So, what are you doing today? What are the people you’re working for, for example? What are you trying to achieve?

Kevon:
So, to continue my story.

Matthias:
Yeah, sure.

Kevon:
So, I found Building in Public. And I decided, “Hey, a lot of people are talking about it. There’s a group called Building in Public on Indie Hackers and then on Twitter, people are using this hashtag. But how come when I google it, nothing like educational comes up. No one is teaching others how to get into this movement.” And I thought that’s my calling; like someone is asking me to do it.

Matthias:
Because there’s a void, right?

Kevon:
Yeah. So, I decided, “Hey, I don’t know anything about beauty in public, but what the hell? I could start off by learning all about it and make this e-guide so that other people can learn about it as well. And I would put it out for free because I’m a nobody. I don’t care about that. It’s more about like helping others at that point.”

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
So, what I did was I had nothing written, but I started to write in public. So, I got on Twitter. I announced, “This is what I’m going to do, and this is my research process, and this is my calling and this resonate with me.”

So, I started to just like, tweet small progress on Twitter. And then in the early days, I got like eight likes, seven likes. A lot of people would have given up at that point, but to me, I sort of knew that the bigger picture is that you’re not going to get a spike of attention from people. It’s all about accumulating attention over time; building up your reputation. So, I didn’t care, and I just start doing it.

And when I launched the guide, it went pretty well; like two thousand people read it in three days.

Matthias:
Yeah, it’s amazing.

Kevon:
So, I suddenly, overnight, I became the Building in Public person; one of the go-to.

Matthias:
Amazing.

Kevon:
So, that was the story.

Matthias:
When was that?

Kevon:
I started creating content last year, November; a year ago. And then I spend like six to eight weeks just writing failures and struggles. And then early this year, like Jan/Feb, 2021, that was when I released the guide. I spent two months on it.

Matthias:
Wow.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Becoming active on Twitter

Matthias:
That’s amazing.

Did you create a new Twitter account or was it an existing one? Did you have zero followers or more?

Kevon:
Okay, so in terms of followers, I had the account for like 12 years, but I never used it. I just register and leave it there. So, I had maybe one hundred and eighty followers. But these are all friends. They’re not even active on Twitter.

So, when I released the guide, I had 700 followers. And then in about a week, I doubled the followers because of the guide.

Matthias:
Wow.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
That’s amazing.

I started at the end of – When did I start with the new account? And the end of October? Yeah, 25th of October, 2020. It’s almost a year now. And I started with zero followers. And today I’m at about 900 or so. It’s going very, very slowly. So, when you were talking about eight likes or so, I’m already envious because I get two or three likes, maximum.

(Kevon laughs).

It seems to depend on the type of content you post. Because I’m more like, let’s say, a “radio station” who posts into the void, and you are more like interactive. I see you as very interactive. You are asking questions. You’re commenting on what people do. Do you have a certain kind of strategy or method behind what you tweet?

Kevon’s Twitter philosophy: an hour each day

Kevon:
Yeah, definitely.

So, I actually have a philosophy around Twitter. So, to me, I don’t spend all day on Twitter. I spend probably one hour plus on Twitter each day; like pieces here and there. But if you combine it, it’s like an hour each day.

I purposely did this because there’s no way I can be on Twitter all the time and still be productive.

So, the way I see Twitter is that there are three pillars:

1. The first one is that you really need to be the expert; the go-to person for something. So, you just need to be clear on what you’re sharing, and you create or you process the information through your brain and then spit out the best content for people to learn something from you. That’s a must. You cannot get away from it.
2. Number two is getting exposure. A lot of people don’t think about how their profile is being exposed, but they’re actually only a few ways: when you get tagged by people, when you tweet reply to someone, when your DM someone and someone clicks on your profile. They are just like, I think, eight or ten ways. So, for me, I figured the way that suits me the best is when I tweet something out, and I personally reply to every single person. That just keeps the engagement and the conversation going. That works for me. All the other ways like DMing people, tagging people to get attention; that doesn’t work for me. It’s just not me.
3. And then the last one is relationships. So, it’s all about building relationships; like don’t “car-sell” people. It’s all about genuine, helpful relationships. So, I just focus on these three things, and that’s it. I don’t spend my time on anything else.

Matthias:
Wow.

Can you repeat the points again? One, two, three?

Kevon:
Sure.

1. The first one is obvious: creating value.
2. The second one is getting exposure to your profile through different ways.
3. Number three is building social capital: building relationships. Yeah.

Matthias:
Yeah, that’s sounds simple. Sounds like it totally makes sense! Maybe it’s too simple for my mind. I always struggle with this! I don’t know why exactly. Maybe because I’m such an introvert, but I don’t know.

Kevon:
I guess it’s different. Like you mentioned, you have a SaaS product. You are more like a product person, a developer.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
I’m a creator. I create courses, community content…

Matthias:
Ah, okay.

Kevon:
So, I definitely have more time to go online, to engage with people. So, I would tell people to pick the strategy that worked for them. It’s not like one size fits all.

Matthias:
Yeah, yeah, that’s right. Some people use totally different strategies like, for example, posting quotes. That’s not my thing; taking quotes from books or online and posting them.

Or, for example, I find very fascinating this, Alex – What was his name, Alex Lull or something? The Twitter Thief?

Kevon:
L-U-L-L?

Matthias:
L-U-L-L, yes, or L-L-U-L-L, I think.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
The Twitter Thief with his graphics! He always posts these tiny little drawings. Very interesting! And so, each person on Twitter has their own strategy. I’m always fascinated by that.

Kevon:
Yeah. At the end of the day, it’s all about like human skills; human interaction skills. You’re dealing with people. Basically, how you make friends in real life, you should do exactly the same online.

I don’t know why people, when they go online, they think that everything seems easier. You can just send a bunch of outreach message to people and they need to do something for you. No, it doesn’t work like that in real life.

Becoming a creator: From free stuff to paid courses

Matthias:
No.

So, you said you are creator, what is it that you are creating these days? I have seen on Twitter that you are creating multiple things. For example, I have subscribed for your free Twitter course; it’s an email. I found it very good. So, what are the things you are creating these days?

Kevon:
Yeah. So, I create mainly on two topics. One is obviously the Building in Public.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
Because I created a guide and then a lot of people start coming to me with their questions. So, I just keep focusing on that.

But then I also follow my heart and I talk about things like making Twitter friends, how to be authentic and how to build like a very genuine presence online and grow your early followers, to even convert them to superfans. So, this is what I love. And also Building in Public. So, two things.

And when you ask me what I’m mostly creating, honestly – So, I started the first six months creating free stuff. Everything is free, even the email course. And I started to try to monetize in April, six months ago.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
And I created courses, self-paced course, cohort-based live course, communities. I have been figuring out what fits me the best and what can serve people the best. And I think I finally get it: it’s courses! I’m very eager to teach people. And some of the concepts sound simple, but it’s actually very deep and there’s frameworks around where I can help will learn.

So, right now, I’m working on basically two things; one is a self-paced book/course about how to build your early online presence. So, that’s for the beginners. And then I’m working on a cohort-based, like a three or four weeks intensive course for people who already have a presence, but want to build in public to involve their audience more. So, that’s for the advanced people. So, it’s just two products. And I can try to help both of both groups of people.

Matthias:
Interesting. You have several options in the race. You have one beginner option, one advanced option. And they build upon each other, I think.

Kevon:
Definitely.

Matthias:
They will have something to do with each other. Yeah.

Kevon:
Yes, totally.

Serving certain audiences who build in public

Matthias:
Agreed.

Your audience; the people you who will take your courses or read your books or read your emails or whatever, do they have a name for themselves? Do they say we are so-and-so or is it just anybody?

Kevon:
There’s no name so far for it. But I have noticed a trend. Originally, it was a lot of developers, because I think Building in Public is more developer-oriented.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
But then as I keep going and expand my audience, I have a feeling that general entrepreneurs; like people who are like me, creators, or people who run consulting business or people run agency business online, they are very interested in the concept of Building in Public as well. So, it definitely expands a little bit. And I definitely think there are still a lot of people who don’t know about Building in Public. Yeah, but so far, no name to describe them.

Matthias:
Oh, okay. But entrepreneurs in general, right?

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
People who want to create something, do something, build something in public. Yeah, that’s great.

Kevon:
Yeah, entrepreneurs. As vague as it can be.

Matthias:
I had another podcast episode with Justin from Transistor. Transistor is the podcast hosting service. And I said, “Oh, you’ve got a service for podcasters.” And he said, “No.” I said, “What?” “Yeah, people don’t call themselves podcasters. They are people who want to create a podcast, but they are not podcasters. They call themselves medical doctors, marketers, entrepreneurs, whatever, book writers, but they don’t call themselves podcasters. So, for example, on the website, it doesn’t say this is for podcasters. No, it’s for people who want a podcast.”

So, I find that interesting. I always think about: “should we label our audience, or shouldn’t we”? And I get more and more away from that. I’m realizing that just treating them as people, it’s much better.

However, there are some commonalities. I could say some kind of “persona”, just an ideal type of audience member. We can identify that, like… If

• what are they trying to achieve?
• What are their goals, their challenges? Something like that.
• Or what are their jobs that they need to get done? For example, a blogger needs to write blog post, he needs to share them, needs to measure the impact and so on. So, there are certain jobs that people need to get done.

What would you say, people who build in public? What do they need to get done?

One reason to build in public: Becoming known for something

Kevon:
The most attractive way to describe this would be “grow a huge following” and be known for something. You know, built this personal brand. I think if we look at the end of the spectrum, that’s the end goal for almost everyone.

So, whether they can get there in a year or so, that’s a different story. But that’s the destination.

Matthias:
Yeah. So, becoming known for something.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
I remember in my Twitter followers, there’s someone who’s known for Google Ads, for example. He calls himself the Google Ad guy.

Kevon:
Yeah.

But within the spectrum, there are so many different reasons people want to do it; accountability to themselves. As a solo entrepreneur, that’s pretty hard. So, you have other people to keep you accountable.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
A lot of people love the fact that you can just put something out and get feedback right away.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
And then you have a lot of data points to work with. That’s another goal, but more for the short term.

Matthias:
Mm hmm. Oh, I love that. Yeah, getting feedback is always great. I always appreciate that.

Kevon:
I love it.

Like, like for me, I wrote about how I created my community outside of my brain. And the concept is I used to be that guy who always imagined the solution in my head, and I would be like, “Oh, I’m a genius. I thought of this!”

But I realize I’m actually pretty dumb. Instead of relying on my brain, I should just use Building in Public and ask people what they want, and I build something they want.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
Yeah, they’re telling me the answer! So, I’m approaching all my products the same way now, which is pretty cool! I make sure at least some people will find it very relevant.

The results of Building in Public

Matthias:
Mm hmm.

It becomes kind of automatic, right? You become known for something. You put out, for example, your guide to Building in Public. You get a lot of questions. And depending on the questions, you can decide what’s necessary, what’s the next bit of value that you should deliver? Is that so?

Kevon:
Yeah. If you think about it, it’s kind of like a rat running on the exercise wheel; it doesn’t stop. Because as long as you keep throwing questions out there and as long as your audience love you, they would response. So, it doesn’t stop until one day, you’re tired of all this and you say, “I’m quitting Twitter” or whatever.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
But that’s the coolness of building a public. Yeah, people are very helpful.

Is there a recipe for course content?

Matthias:
And these courses that you mentioned, when you create a self-paced course or a cohort-based course, what are the ingredients of kind of recipe that you use?

Kevon:
The recipe of?

Matthias:
Of the course. So, do you put in videos or scripts or tasks or assignments for people or what elements do you put into the course?

Kevon:
I see. I need to kind of come in as an educator to look at things from education standpoint. Because I have tried using emails to share the daily to-dos to people and then have like a video content for them to consume. But then I realize, probably for me right now with my audience, the best way is something written so that people can take their time to absorb the knowledge. And then there’s some worksheet/workbooks so that they can practice.

You know, I’m all about actionable tips. I don’t want to tell people how great Building in Public is. They don’t need to know that. But I want to show them, “Okay, this is the first step you should do and then read the next chapter. This is the second step.” I want to do that. So, the workbook is very important.

And then probably for some key concepts, I think it might be easier if I just record myself talking about it.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
So, to me, the best course nowadays would be multimedia. It’s not just a written, it’s not just video; it’s a bit of everything. But of course, it becomes very hard to create. But I see a ton of value to help people learn better.

Carefully choosing the right media for teaching

Matthias:
That’s interesting.

So, the elements you choose, they depend on what it is that you’re going to teach. For example, difficult concepts, I think, would be better to teach it in written form, whereas actionable stuff or how-to’s maybe would be good in video or engaging video form. How do you see that? When would you choose one thing and when would you choose the other?

Kevon:
Let me think about this.

Matthias:
Yeah, sure.

Kevon:
The way I look at this is actually people just consume with different preferences. Some people love to read. Some people would like to watch. So, my first angle is by doing both, I can serve more of them.

Matthias:
Okay.

Kevon:
One thing that I particularly like to do in video is that when I have a lot of examples to share, then I can just like, “Oh, screen share.” Because I’m all about actionable, right? So, it’s only actionable when you show them how to do it.

So, then I would walk them through, “Okay, this is how I consume content. This is how I create a system around producing content. And this is how I think about Building in Public in four steps.” That is quite hard to describe fully in text.

Matthias:
Oh, yeah.

Kevon:
So, in that sense, I would create a video. But of course, not everything needs a video. Sometimes it’s just very straightforward.

Matthias:
Right. Yeah, that’s totally clear. If you have lots of screens to share showing different examples, and so on, it takes much too long, if you write all that down with screenshots and everything.

Kevon:
Exactly. And it’s boring to look, right?

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
Scrolling tweets and then screenshots.

How a cohort-based course works: Achieving goals, together!

Matthias:
Yeah.

And these cohort-based courses. How does that work? Is there a group of people who gets together and do it?

Kevon:
Yeah, so the concept of cohort-based courses, pretty much there’s a start date and an end date. So, people sign up and they pretty much achieve something within that time frame. So, there’s sense of urgency as well as you know who’s in there with you, so you can bounce ideas, you can meet a new friend, and you can do it together.

I’m learning about this. I’m actually currently taking a course on how to be cohort-based course creator.

Matthias:
Hey, wow!

Kevon:
Yeah.

So, I think my biggest learning is, don’t spend a live-session time teaching something to the students. Because if you are just like lecturing, it’s boring, and you can just record a video.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
So, the best part is leaving the live sessions to be about sharing, about discussion; rapid fire. Hey, if I have 10 students, each of them gets a minute to share something quick, and then everyone gives feedback to each other. Something like that; very interactive. And even we can do breakout; three people per group.

So, all the things about concepts, just do it in a video and share it to them at the right time.

Matthias:
Mm hmm.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
Sounds amazing.

Kevon:
It’s a lot of work to create a course that really, really, really is good.

Matthias:
Yeah, that’s right.

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
(Pauses for thinking…) Well, I’m just thinking about that.

This creating content; when you said, “This is how I create content”, for example, you show people how you create content or how you consume content and then create something new out of it. Is it part of the self-paced or is it part of the cohort-based course or both?

Kevon:
Current plan is to put it in the book, the handbook/course, the self-paced one. Because this is something that is more about a system. So, I don’t really need to teach you in a live format. It’s better for you to just pick up and practice and take your time to develop the system.

Matthias: Yeah, right. Systems and concepts, it’s more for consuming, building up structures. And … the rest is for experience; for trying out things, for giving feedback to each other. Yeah, that’s more for the live sessions!

Kevon:
Yeah. But I guess the way I split them is more based on the scope of learning and what outcome I want. So, one is for beginner, one is for advanced. But then in terms of the content format like how I teach it, it wouldn’t be, “Oh, this one goes to the beginner course. This one goes to the events course.” It becomes more like, “Okay, now I have the whole curriculum. How do I best teach it for the advanced people?” So, it’s very within that scope itself.

Kevon’s background in a kids coding school

Matthias:
Do you have a background in teaching or is it just that you like it?

Kevon:
So, it’s funny. I spent four years in my career running a kids’ coding school.

Matthias:
Oh boy, that’s great.

Kevon:
Yeah.

So, it’s physical. So, we have a campus, and then we have like eight classrooms. And the kids will be four to 18. So, mostly six to 12, but we cover the whole range. And they would come in and we’ll teach them web development and JavaScript, mobile app development. But the easier version, not native mobile app.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
And then we’ll teach them, like Minecraft; how do you learn coding in Minecraft? Something like that. So, I was never the teacher, but I pretty much covered the whole operation of the place. And it’s funny how I’m coming back to education.

But I think for me, I just like to help people. I like to break down concepts and share it with people. So, I guess that’s my love for education, but I don’t have like a professional background in it. That’s why I’m learning.

We’re teachers and learners at the same time

Matthias:
Yeah, we’re teachers and learners, right? Sometimes when I teach things, I’m a teacher for software engineering methods, for example; domain-driven design, software architecture, all kinds of things, in my day job.

And I’m always learning. When I teach a certain way to do something, for example, how to design a system, how to break it down into subsystems, giving interfaces and so on. And suddenly, somebody comes around and says, “No, I do it differently.” and I say, “Hey, how are you doing it?” “I’m doing it serverless. I don’t like web servers. I want everything to be lambda functions” and so on. And I say, “Wow, okay! It’s not my thing. But yeah, I’m always learning about stuff.”

And so, I think as a teacher, you learn very much when you teach stuff to people. You get so much feedback. And it’s so interesting. I love that too!

Kevon:
Yeah, my biggest learning so far is – So, I’m a creator. And creator is very much marketing-oriented. You know, we write stories, we tell stories. And I realize it’s actually not easy for a creator to become a course instructor. It’s two different things like you. You cannot just lecture people on those marketing concepts and write Step One to Five.

As a course creator, you really need to take a step back and guide people, “Okay, the first week, let’s just do something easy. Get them realize the importance of something. And then Week Two, we progress to doing something harder.” Wow, it’s so different.

I ran a couple of courses already, and I have been asking for feedback all along and there are some good feedbacks and there are some also direct feedback. So, yeah, love it. Take it and improve myself.

The mindset for marketing

Matthias:
Wow.

Yeah, I also find that marketing and everything else, I think, are two different things. For me as a builder, because I build a SaaS, I can almost identify two states of mind in my head: When I’m really deep into coding or designing user interfaces or administering my systems or whatever, I’m in a totally different mood than when I’m marketing.

So, for example, recently I noticed that about, let’s say, three months ago or so I stopped podcasting because it was too much work for me. And I thought, “Oh, that’s a pity that I stopped podcasting. I should resume podcasting.” And there was someone on Twitter who calls himself The Guy Who Asks The Questions. And as I said on Twitter, “I want to resume podcasting.” He came back with a question that says, “What does that mean?” And I say, “What? What does it guy mean by, what does it mean?”

And I asked back, and he said, “Yeah, break it down into stuff you have to do for that.” “Yeah, I have to record a podcast. I have to publish it. I have to share it on social media. I have to measure how many downloads” and so on and so on.

“Yeah, and what did what does it mean exactly?” “Okay, go one level deeper, doing some time estimates. This takes half an hour. This takes two hours. For example, transcribing into a transcript may take a long time.”

And finally, he asked me, “How much time would you need?” “Okay. And so, are you willing to give it to give this amount of time?” And I thought, “Oh, wow, that’s a good question. And when would I give that time?” And finally, I thought, “I can put, let’s say, two hours on Monday and three hours on Friday on my calendar.” And now I’m really able to podcast because I have created some space to podcast.

So, it’s really difficult to be the software engineer who writes code and then the podcaster who does marketing and who does interaction with people and planning, for example, who will I invite? What will I talk about? How do I share all this and so on. It’s an amazing switch in the state of mind.

Marketing has to be done from the audience’s point of view

Kevon:
You raise a really good point. I think part of what I’m sharing with people is that exactly that. When you are the product builder, you’re always thinking from your perspective. But then when you write all these tweets, you have to write it from the other person angle:

• How do they read it?
• Can they really quickly?
• Do they understand you?
• Do they learn something from your tweet?

If no, then that to it is probably just for yourself, and do you still want to tweet it?

So, part of the lesson that I’m teaching people is exactly how do you translate that into a story? Yeah.

Matthias:
That’s a fantastic difference. Yeah.

Then I get an idea where my problem comes from because many of my tweets are written from my own perspective. Yeah, you’re mentioning an important difference!

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
You’re tweeting. And when you’re storytelling for someone, yeah, I should really write it from the perspective of this someone.

Kevon:
Yeah.

There are so many occasions where, let’s say I watch a Netflix movie, and I really want to shout it to the internet and say, “Wow, this is a great show.” But then I always stop myself like, “Hmm, people follow me for Building in Public. Do they really want to know I watch this Netflix movie? No.” Okay, then I resist and not share. It takes a lot to stop yourself from saying things on the internet.

Matthias:
Yeah, I love Ted Lasso, for example, the series on Apple TV. But this football trainer who doesn’t have any idea about English football, because he’s American. I love to watch that. Oh, sorry, I have to stop that telephone for a moment.

Kevon:
Sure.

Matthias:
I love the TV series, and sometimes I post that I’m watching a certain episode, but no response. I think that that people are not – Yeah, they don’t come to me for this reason! They are expecting something for which I’m known. Yeah.

Kevon:
Totally. Yeah, that that’s also something I share in my book/course; how to create personal brand guidelines so that you are consistent with yourself.

Matthias:
Yeah, that’s right.

Kevon:
Yeah, you need a framework to help yourself. Yeah.

Can there be a system behind audience building?

Matthias:
Yeah.

Do you think that that audience building is a system that can be put into a system or is it just individual for creators, for builders, for every person? Or is there a system behind it for audience building?

Kevon:
Very deep and great question. I definitely think there can be system. And there are tons of framework and steps that we can teach people to follow; the best practices.

But at the same time, I think because we’re dealing with people. And when you’re dealing with people, it takes soft skills. And no matter how much I tell you, “Hey, Matthias, you have to be authentic online.” What does that mean? A lot of people don’t get how to be authentic, how to be nice or like how to be helpful to people. That’s very vague.

So, yeah, 50-50; there’s a system for the technicals, but then we need to develop the person to be able to talk to people and interact with people as well.

Matthias:
Okay. Yeah, I like that. Not every system can be filled by every person, right?

Kevon:
Definitely not. Yeah.

How does Kevon perceive community vs. audience building?

Matthias:
Yeah.

And what do you see as the main difference between – you also mentioned community building. What is the main difference between community building and audience building? What do you think?

Kevon:
So, far, in my own definition, I think audience building is more focused on the one person; the creator or the entrepreneur. So, people are his or her audience by following this person.

But community is totally different. You can imagine it like a high school classroom where the students form a circle, and they’re talking to each other playing a game. No one is in the center of the room, not even the teacher. The teacher is within that circle and they’re talking to each other, bouncing ideas. So, there’s no leader. I think that’s the essence of a community.

Matthias:
People collaborating with themselves instead of the leader. The audience is very much leader focused.

Kevon:
Totally.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
But there’s a very important point I want to share here. Even though I say audience building is very focused on their creator, a lot of people have this like, “Oh, it must be like a musician standing on stage performing, singing a song to the audience.”

Actually, no. I’m actually trying to convince people to see audience building as the same as community building. Imagine yourself in a circle, and you’re just one of them. I think the best person who did this so well is Arvid Kahl.

Putting the creator on a stage, even when he/she doesn’t know about it

Matthias:
Sure. Yeah.

Kevon:
He’s just one person in the circle. And everyone can interact with him freely and openly. He’s not putting himself on stage. So, I think audience building should get closer to community building.

Matthias:
That’s an interesting point. Because it was always a kind of dichotomy for me, like two different things. But this unifies the view a little bit.

I think there’s one thing that can happen in spite of, for example, Arvid is really, he doesn’t put himself on a stage. But it can happen that people put him on a stage. You know what I mean?

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
They admire him so much. I did that in the beginning, for example, I thought, “Yeah, this guy is so prolific in writing. This guy is so productive in tweeting. How does he do that?” After a while, I learned about his systems and so on. And I don’t put him so much on a pedestal as I did before. But I think that can happen, doesn’t it?

Kevon:
Yeah, I like to explain this to my student that just imagine Arvid is sitting in the circle. But then, you know, throughout the days, he’s always going around helping people. And then a lot of people see that he’s so good at something when they – Let’s say, math, right? Arvid is very good at math. I’m just making this up, by the way.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
And so, when it comes to a math competition and the class need to vote for someone to be the captain, who is that going to be? That’s going to be Arvid. So, you pretty much interact with people enough so that they look at you as a leader.

Blurring the distinction between audience and community

Matthias:
Yeah, yeah. Interesting.

And you could, for example, still foster a community. Yeah, but the distinction blurs after a while.

Matthias:
So, let’s imagine audience building is a circle of people sitting together. Community building is also a circle sitting together. But I think the main difference is that in community building, we need to work really hard to get all the students – I’m using students in this example – to help each other.

But in audience building, you don’t need to try as hard because more people are looking up to Arvid as the leader.

Matthias:
Mm hmm. Oh, I see. Do you know Rosie Sherry, by the way?

Kevon:
Of course, yeah.

Matthias:
And she’s so great in community building. I was around when she was still the community manager for Indie Hackers. And afterwards I read her newsletter and how she’s arguing. And I also had her in my podcast.

It’s so amazing what this lady can do for a community. I think this is a very special skill. When you say you have to try very hard to make them collaborate and make them help each other, and she does it kind of naturally! It’s so amazing that some people have these skills and don’t need to spend extra energy, I think. That’s the difference. Some people have to spend energy, the others do it by their nature. It’s so amazing.

Kevon:
Totally.

I think community has gotten to this point where it’s more like a buzzword word. So, a lot of people jump into it, but a lot of people will realize that it’s not in their nature to connect people. It’s a lot of work. And then they step back. It’s completely normal.

What happens when a community builder steps down

Matthias:
Yeah, I’ve seen lots of communities that have been founded with the best intentions that go very well for six weeks, as long as the leader is connecting the people. And the moment the leader steps back, everything starts to slow down.

Kevon:
I’m actually an example of that. So, maybe I can share a little bit. I ran a paid community since April. So, for half a year.

Matthias:
Okay.

Kevon:
And just one week ago, I wrote a blog post that I announced to the members, I’m no longer charging them any future recurring membership fee. And the reason is because I like to help people. But then I realize it’s very mentally draining for me to have people pay monthly or quarterly or annually. So, I have this pressure in my mind that I need to keep creating values for them every single day.

And it is so draining that I decided, “Okay, if my favorite thing to do is to run a course and teach people critical skills, the community should be the supporting component of the course, but it should not be something that people pay just to be inside. And that’s how I made the decision. So, I’m a living example of this.

Matthias:
That’s interesting! So, you focus on the course because you have the energy for it. You love doing it. It’s no problem to do it. But to keep the community together and people helping each other and so on, is this costing you energy or is it also something that you love?

Community means connecting people to each other instead of to yourself

Kevon:
I love helping people. But then I realized, if you want to run a community, the key is to connect the people to themselves, not to you.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
So, I realize that takes up a lot of my energy, and it gets to a point where I just don’t think I can handle it.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
It’s actually just pressure by myself, because people are saying they love the community, they’re getting value. But to me, I feel bad charging people if I’m not actively doing something for them every single day.

Matthias:
Yeah, I understand that. I remember I had a paid newsletter several years ago, and in the beginning, everything was fine. I was writing, writing, writing. After a while, I ran out of ideas and the energy didn’t come up. Yeah, I also stopped charging because I thought, “No, you can’t go on like that and keep people charging.”

Kevon:
Yeah.

Matthias:
It’s actually the same thing.

Kevon:
So, be careful. Be careful when you charge recurring fee; that’s the type of things you have to deal with.

Charging a recurring fee

Matthias:
Interestingly, I have no problem to charge for my SaaS because I’m constantly working on it; I’m adding features, I’m adding landing pages, documentation pages, explaining things. So, that comes pretty naturally, as a software engineer. So, I can charge for that. But if I had something where I need a lot of energy then I would need to think about charging. That’s right.

Kevon:
Yeah, I think the key thing is I’ve also no problem charging for my course, because I’m giving them direct value; teaching them something. But community is super vague. Some people get value because they actively connect with someone, but some people just sit back, so they’re not getting value. You just cannot judge who is getting value and who’s not. So, it’s like you’re so worried all the time.

Matthias:
Even the people sitting back, you don’t know whether they’re getting value or not. Maybe they enjoy the presence of the others, for example.

Kevon:
Exactly.

Matthias:
You don’t know. Yeah, it’s amazing.

Kevon:
Exactly. Or they enjoy my content and that’s enough for them to pay.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Kevon:
But I just don’t know.

Matthias:
That’s right.

Where does Kevon want to develop his audience, in one year from now?

Matthias:
So, I’ve got one final question, Kevon. If you imagine yourself and your audience in, let’s say, one year from now, what do you think will happen or what do you think should happen from your perspective?

Kevon:
Very tough question, what should happen one year from now? I don’t know. I guess the honest answer would be, I need to make this work for myself so that I can keep helping people and sharing free content out there. So, for me, like I need to get the course to work; that’s my main source of income.

But then I think about like if we just imagined the Twitter audience, top of my head, I cannot think of anything different that I should be doing that I’m not doing now. For example, I’m creating free content to help people. I am putting out questions, so that they can learn from each other. These are the things that I would love to keep doing so. Yeah, I just cannot think of anything right now.

Matthias:
Oh, that’s interesting. Then you’re on a pretty good track, I think So, the thing that you think should happen is really quite in sync with what really happens. (Difficult to explain that in English.)

Kevon:
Yeah, I don’t know, honestly. I think at this point, yeah, I’m very mindful about my own journey. So, as you can tell, like I make critical decisions. Some people might question, “Kevon, people are willing to pay you money. Why did you shut it down?”

I just follow my heart, and I want to be honest with myself and with other people. So, maybe that’s why it comes across as like, “Oh, it seems like you are doing the right thing right now.” Yeah, maybe.

Matthias:
Thank you, Kevon. This is a good closing word, I think. It has been sn amazing conversation with you. Thank you so much for being here.

Kevon:
Yeah, thank you. Matthias, thank you so much. I feel like we’ve talked about many, many different things here.

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Outro

Thanks for listening to The Audience Explorer podcast, today.

You can find me on Twitter at @GetTheAudience and you can check out the blog at gettheaudience.com

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