Coaching call with Charles-Olivier Demers, founder of Feedback Farm

Transcript of episode 27

Matthias:
Hello, dear listeners of the Audience Explorer podcast. Here’s a new episode today I’m happy to welcome Charles-Olivier Demers. Hello, Charles-Olivier!

Charles-Olivier:
Hello. Thanks for having me.

Matthias:
Thanks for coming. I enjoy that. Today, we’ll have a coaching call about how to develop an audience for Feedback Farm, the product of Charles-Olivier. Charles-Olivier is from Montreal. He’s an entrepreneur who also has a day job, and I’m first interested to know a little more about your background and your current situation. What is it that’s going on?

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah. So, I’m Charles, like you said, Charles-Olivier. Originally, I’m from Sherbrooke, in Canada, in Quebec State. And I grew there. And since two years ago, when Covid started, me and my girlfriend decided to move to Montreal because she wanted to go to university and for my day-to-day job, like you said, I’m a CTO from the company called Aprentx, and the headquarters were in Montreal. Well, we are still in Montreal.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, basically, we decided to move him here because my job was there in the office and all this kind of stuff. So, it was before COVID strikes. So, my plan was to go work at the office, but now I’m still working from my home.

Matthias:
Now, you’re working from home. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah. And that’s what I was doing before coming to Montreal. So, that was not a big change for me. But more from my technical background; I studied in Cégep. I don’t remember in English, what is the name for Cégep; I think it’s college. But yeah, I have graduate in computer science.

Matthias:
Okay.

Charles-Olivier:
So, basically, that’s my technical background. I started to go to university in computer science too. But after two sessions, I dropped out from university because it was not for me and was kind of – I’m more like a kind of guy that learning by himself. So, it was kind of difficult learning by just to sit–

Matthias:
Yeah, learning by exploring. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Exactly. So, it was kind of difficult for me, just to sit and learn. In technology, I think, I don’t know if it’s relevant to any program or something – Well, I think the issue is worse in the technology sector because everything is moving so fast. So, what you learn in school was good like five years ago, but right now it was kind of…

Matthias:
Yeah, we have fast development, really.

Charles-Olivier:
Exactly. So, it was kind of the code for me like to – I was knowing what was built on the market. And likewise, there’s no way I will do something like that in my day-to-day job. So, I keep thinking about this and it was like my motivation was just going down.

And one of my friends, too, that we were in college together. We went to university together and we dropped at the same time. So, it was kind of we were doing the same thing. So, it was kind of cool.

So, after that, when I was in university, I did an internship in a company called Mirego in Quebec. It’s a major company that are building like basically mobile application. So, this was my first time I was responsible – Well, I was an intern working on an application for watching TV here in Quebec. So, basically, I learned a lot of things doing this internship. So, yeah, basically, that’s was my experience with the university.

And also, in 2016 – And by the way, I’m 25. So, it was in 2016. I just turned 25, by the way.

Matthias:
Wow, congratulations.

Charles-Olivier:
It was a week ago.

Matthias:
Quarter of a century on earth.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly. So, before that in 2016 – Sorry, I’m going like between dates. It’s not a chronological order. But in 2016, I went to California for the WWDC system from Apple.

Matthias:
Ah, yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And by the way, I’m an Apple fanboy. So, I was very excited to go and submit an application to be selected as a student. I don’t remember; student scholarship, I think they got? So, I was invited there and really enjoy. So, just for the information, my kind of background in the technological sphere.

I’m coming back to when I’ve done my internship, when I was at the university, I was also working on my own companies. It was called Factory26 and I was specializing with some of my friends in developing mobile application and web platform for people.

And basically, it was working well. I got a lot of – What is the word? I’ve got a lot of contract of work to do for my client. So, it was going very well. And one of my project that I was doing, that’s where I met my current CEO of the company where I’m working right now. I’m working at a company called Apprentx. And we met together on another project and it said, “Hey, do you want to work with me?” Blah blah blah. It’s a sales speech. And it was really interesting, and it’s still interesting, what I’m doing right now in my day-to-day job.

So, yeah, since 2018, by the end of 2018, I might say, I’m working at Apprentx as a CTO; a full-time job. A 4-day work week.

Matthias:
Oh, wow. So, CTO was a demanding job, right? It fills you in the entire week?

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly. So, it’s really like – Well, it’s normally, I don’t say a 40-hour work week job because sometimes it’s more, sometimes not.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Basically, the minimum is 40, but sometimes on the Saturday or in evening, I need to do some stuff because we’re still a startup. We have been acquired by another company in February this year. So, now we are working inside another company. So, that’s really cool.

And yeah, we’re still a startup. So, that’s why sometimes we need to do some more stuff as they come with this kind of job.

Matthias:
Interesting.

Charles-Olivier:
But I’m really enjoying it.

Matthias:
Interesting. And about this side project of yours, this is also very interesting, called Feedback Farm, what is it? What are you doing there?

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, basically just to go behind why I started back at first?

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
First is because I was on Twitter and I was looking all this person was like, “Oh, I hate my new project. It’s really cool” and blah blah. “I’m building an audience.” And this kind of message that was going through my Twitter feed. Basically, I was more active on Twitter. Six months ago, I started becoming more active on Twitter and I would read some interesting people and follow. Well, basically I wasn’t–I’m searching the word–but I got caught in the loop. So, I was kind of following those kind of people. And said, “Hey, it’s really interesting to have a project that you can like –“

For me, what I’ve told my friend is, “I just want to make a project and make one dollar online in 2021 just to be like, ‘Oh, I made a project and someone in the world was using it.’”

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
I was kind of like, “It’s really amazing. You are sending a product to people you don’t know and they’re using it.” So, that was my first goal. So, I started. I said in the Twitter world, Twitter sphere, I might say, I’m getting more engaged with people, following their journey into building their application.

So, at first, I started building an app called GoTo and it was an app for – It was basically the same thing as bitly; like a URL shortener.

Matthias:
Oh, okay.

Matthias:
And while I was building this application, I find, “Hey, I want to get feedback from user using my app.” Because when you were starting a project you want to get feedback. For me, it’s the most interesting, not KPI, but then the most relevant thing you can have is user feedback, because if they don’t like your project, why are you building or like you need to pivot or – Well, anyway, you want to get feedback.

And so, when I was building the GoTo app, I was like, “Oh, what are the tools currently available to gather feedback?” And I found a lot of tools doing – Well, not a lot, but some tool were doing what I want to do; like I want to have a button, get feedback and pop a model and ask for the feedback. Basically, that’s what I want.

And all the tools I find that was suiting my need were like extremely – Well, not extremely expensive, but they were expensive. Like for me, 20 bucks is expensive because I’m starting a product and I don’t have money to gather feedback for people. The other tools, their pricing was not fitting my need, what I want to do.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
I don’t want to spend 20 bucks if I get zero feedback for an app that I’m launcing. I don’t have this kind of money.

Matthias:
Oh, that’s right. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, I don’t have the money to spend on a tool like that and why should I pay for something that’s really relevant for me and pay like $20 a month; 20 bucks? So, it’s kind of expensive. It was expensive for me. So, I said, “Oh, I should build something like that.”

So, basically, that’s why Feedback Farm exists. So, basically Feedback Farm is a dashboard where you have a widget which you can embed into your website. Currently, I’m working on more website application, not mobile application.

So, you just embed the widget or you can import like the core module of Feedback Farm. And it allows your user to send feedback to Feedback Farm.

So, you’re on your website, you either put a button and get feedback when you press the Get Feedback button in the widget. And in the widget, you can type and say, “Oh, this is a bug. This is a feature. This is another one…

Matthias:
Oh, okay. So, I can add this, for example, to my SaaS application and collect feedback when the people are just in time there; when they are working with my SaaS app.

Charles-Olivier:
Exactly, exactly.

Matthias:
Okay.

Charles-Olivier:
And when customers and feedback, the feedback is getting sent to my application, Feedback Farm. And on the Feedback Farm application, you can log in and you have the dashboard to see what feedback are. So, you can filter. You can reply to a user by email if they provide their email into them. It’s not in the form, but basically, we can add the user identifier. So, you can reply to them.

And there’s also a functionality to get a public board, like public roadmap, if I might say, of the feedback you received. So, basically, that’s it. That’s the tool.

And my goal with that was for my own need. I was needing an application like that. So, I just started a new project. And basically, I’m always searching for projects. So, I say, “Oh, let’s forget about GoTo application and go on Feedback Farm.

So, yeah, I set up to this project. And my goal was, like I told my friend at the start of this, “I just want to make a dollar this year.”

Matthias:
Oh, and what happened then, after that one dollar?

Charles-Olivier:
And I’m happy to announce on – No, it was the night before my birthday. On the morning before my birthday. So, like a week ago, I got my first paying customer, $5 a month. So, my $1 is achieved. And this week I have another customer subscribed for the basic plan too. So, I’m now at $10 a month.

Matthias:
Yeah, it’s cool. 10 MRR.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly. 10 MRR. So, yeah, I’m really excited about this because just to think about like somebody in the world is using what I’ve done and pay for it is pretty interesting. And the feedback about my feedback app that I got is really interesting. People are finding my application like clean and intuitive. And the pricing is reasonable. And they were happy paying for the app, even if I offered them to give like – One of them, well, basically, I offer him a lifetime license, because I was searching for a first user to use my app. And two or three weeks after he started using the app, he just decided to, “Hey, revoke my promo code and I want to pay for it.” So, it’s kind of really, really cool to be able to gather feedback.

Matthias:
Wow, that’s a friendly person. Yeah, cool.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly. And we’ve started becoming friends. So, as of right now, we have a meeting to do once a week and we’re talking about what he is building and what I’m building. So, it’s really interesting.

An audience through Twitter, if I might say, what I really enjoy with the audience on Twitter and why I’m trying to grow my audience is because those kinds of reasons. It’s like, I think, it’s very interesting after that to talk with a person doing the same thing as you. Well, not the same thing, but in the same – they’re working to the same goal; grow their empire and make money with that and have fun.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Basically, everything I do is to have fun at first. So, on Twitter, what I like about that is this is the place where we can chat about ideas and find other people to try your app, to be customer, to get feedback. So, yeah, that was my – Yeah.

Matthias:
That’s your business now. Cool.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah.

Matthias:
And who are those people? What do you think would they call themselves, “I am a someone?” Would they say something like that?

Charles-Olivier:
They would say, “I’m a SaaS founder, SaaS developer”, I think. So, basically, they are developer or funder of their application. The two first customers. So, I don’t have a big customer base. So, the two, yeah, they are working on their application. And yeah, basically, they are SaaS founder or a SaaS developer. And that’s the people I’m following on Twitter also.

Matthias:
Okay, SaaS founders or developers and(or) SaaS developers. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah.

Matthias:
So, they’re looking for ways so that people can give them feedback and they don’t pay too much for it, let’s say.

Charles-Olivier:
Exactly.

Matthias:
Ah, yeah. Okay, so they are price sensitive because they are starting out or they don’t have much money yet with a big customer base.

Charles-Olivier:
Well, to be honest, I didn’t have this discussion with them. So, I don’t want to talk for them, but I think they were liking the platform. And of course, the price seems to be like in – Everyone is looking at the price. So, I think the price is good for – And that’s what I want to do with it, because for me, like 20 bucks a month was expensive and $5 was not. So, that’s why I cut down the price. So, I guess that’s the same reason for them, but I should have this discussion with them, just to –

Matthias:
Yeah, it would be interesting to ask them whether it would change the world if you raise the price or if you lower the price. There’s an interesting way to ask that. It’s called the Van Westendorp Method.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay.

Matthias:
It’s a way to ask, “What would be the price where you thought that Feedback Farm was expensive?” To get an understanding of what they find expensive.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay.

Matthias:
And another question is, “What would you think is the price where you would say, ‘Ah, Feedback Farm; is that quality at all?’ if you are too low with the price?”

Charles-Olivier:
Okay.

Matthias:
So, you ask the poor for the higher price, for the lower price? And there I think there are two more questions that I’ve forgotten, but it’s an interesting interview technique, the Van Westerdorp method.

Charles-Olivier:
I’m going to take note of this, basically. So, you can have like what is the – because for me, 20 bucks as expensive, but maybe it’s not the same for everyone, I guess.

Matthias:
Yeah, right. Maybe some people would say, “Yeah, 99 bucks, that would be really expensive”, but I don’t know what people would say.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay, that’s an interesting question to ask them.

Matthias:
Yeah. And the other way is it’s also true; if you say it’s $1 a month, maybe people would think, “Oh, this is not right.”

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, it’s a cheap app.

Matthias:
Yeah, cheap app. Yeah. And otherwise, the SaaS founders, what do you think, if you imagine their desktop, what do you see? What do you have? What do you think do they have on their desktops? What kind of tools or books or what do they have there?

Charles-Olivier:
Okay, basically what they have on their desk? That’s a very good question. Well, I think you have a computer. I’m pretty sure they have a computer.

Matthias:
Computer, okay.

Charles-Olivier:
I guess they have. Like more in terms of book, I think, for me, if you ask me the question, well, I don’t have this physically in my book, but as you can see behind me, I have…

Matthias:
Yeah, The Lean Startup. I can see The Lean Startup.

Charles-Olivier:
If I’m using this book, I think they will have The Lean Startup, of course, from Eric Ries.

Matthias:
Ries. Oh, I see.

Charles-Olivier:
And like I said, I’m – Yeah. And after that, I think, well, I have some more technical book about prediction machine or about machine learning and this kind of stuff. Other than that, Making Things Happen, it’s a book that I’m reading right now. I didn’t finish the book, but yeah, it’s more about project management.

Matthias:
Okay.

Charles-Olivier:
So, it’s kind of interesting to have like this kind of background. And also, I’m going back, but also, what I was doing last year. I start certification into Project Management and Law. How do you say it? I don’t know, in English, word, loi.

Matthias:
Yeah, loi

Charles-Olivier:
But it’s more about the law.

Matthias:
Yeah, the law. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
The law. Yeah. So, I start a certification. It’s like 15 credit, if I’m righty here in Canada. So, I’m not sure it’s the same thing everywhere. But yeah, that’s another thing for my background. But yeah, other than that, I also have the book by Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Matthias:
Ah, a classic one. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, I’m pretty sure some of the people I’m talking to have those kind of books. But for me, that’s it. Other than that, I have the book, Remote. It’s about – I don’t remember. Yeah, Jason Fried.

Matthias:
Ah, yeah, the base camp people. Yeah, yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah. And I’m really interested in those kind of book also. The other book, I forgot the name, but it’s about Netflix culture.

Matthias:
Mm hmm.

Charles-Olivier:
I forgot the name. It was really interesting, but don’t know the name. So, that is the book I have. So, if I transpose myself to the people I’m talking to, I guess they have those kinds of books; like books about project management and this kind of stuff.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And also, they are in the startup world. So, I guess, like The Lean Startup is not – I think it’s a good choice for them to have. So, that’s going to be my pick.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
But yeah, that’s the book I think they have.

Matthias:
That’s interesting. The reason why I’m asking you is because I want to know something about the nature of their thinking. So, for example, if you are interested to find more of them, to find more of that audience, the SaaS founders, you could, for example, explore the following of the authors who wrote those books. For example, Jason Fried, he wrote this book together with his friends, I think, this Remote book. In the meantime, he has written more.

For example, if you look at the followers, on Twitter, of Jason Fried, they will likely be people who admire him. And these would also be the people that would maybe you’re interested in to have as an audience.

When you mentioned project management, for example. Base Camp is a project management tool. So, this would also match.

Charles-Olivier:
That’s true.

Matthias:
Maybe SaaS founders would also follow Base Camp. So, it would be an idea, if you want to have more audience, just explore the followers of these two; Jason Fried and Base Camp. So, these could be two ideas.

Charles-Olivier:
And what is the best way to reach those people; to DM them or to retweet and tag Jason Fried? What are the suggestions you have to be able to talk with them?

Matthias:
Yeah. Normally, I start with simply replying to their tweets, adding some value. I look, for example, when someone with a big audience is talking about a subject where I am interested in and I can maybe add some value to the conversation, I simply reply. And the other people who are members of his or her audience are seeing that, and then they say, “Who is this Matthias from Get the Audience? Let’s click on the profile.” And they come to my profile on Twitter and see, “Oh, I’m building a SaaS For Audience development. Okay, I’m tweeting about audience development.” So, maybe they stay and have a look.

So, that’s the easiest thing. Simply reply. And afterwards, if you had some nice conversation, you can DM them and said, “Hey, recently, we had this good conversation. I’d like to contact you directly talking about this or that.” And maybe you get into a conversation where you can offer Feedback Farm later or ask for feedback on Feedback Farm.

Charles-Olivier:
That’s a really good trick.

Matthias:
So, yeah. So, the desktop could be one thing. And the desktop on the computer as well. So, what do you think would they have on their computer; also kind of tools, kind of software that they are using?

Charles-Olivier:
Well, if I’m looking at mine, because it’s easier for me. Well, it’s really for me, I’m a developer at first. So, I’m an entrepreneur other than that. But at first, I’m doing my own project. So, I’m going to speak for that, because people doing marketing, I’m pretty sure, will not have the same thing as me.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
But well, I’m sure they a browser. It shows Chrome.

Matthias:
Okay, web browser. Sure.

Charles-Olivier:
They should have a calendar too, because we have a lot of meetings, scheduling stuff. So, I’m pretty sure they use a calendar app. For me, I’m using the default Apple Calendar app.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Well, they’re having calendar to track their things to get done. A note app, because you need to take note.

Matthias:
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Pardon me, an email client, to get email, basically. After that, if there are more on the developer side, I’m pretty sure they have – Well, it’s really … also with their mobile app developer or web developer. But for a web developer, I’m pretty sure they have something like VSCode editor to make their application. They have probably a client to connect to their database to see data terminal or to launch their app.

And yeah, basically like the tool they are using utmost, library, like the developer tool they’re using. And after that, well, I can categorize them like the developer app. And the productivity section for my…

Matthias:
Oh yes, productivity tools. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Exactly. So, basically, that’s it. Other than that, like more in the productivity space, if I might say, I’m pretty sure they have, like some tools together to create cool screenshots from their application because they are doing a product. And if they are active on Twitter, they want to have something to share.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, I’m pretty sure they have some tools to get a clean feedback on my – screen capture. So, on mime, as well, I’m using CleanShot X. And it allows me to create clean screenshot and not waste time to send feedback.

Matthias:
Interesting idea. A screenshot tool. Yeah, sure.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah. So, for me, it’s something that I’m a happy customer of CleanShot X; a little ad. Their tool is really, really powerful and really clean. It’s like if you take a screenshot of something on screen and you have the background behind, it will automatically hide the folder, the file, and all this kind of stuff. So, it’s really cool.

Matthias:
Oh, CleanShot X. It’s the same one I have. Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah.

Matthias:
At first, I understood Screenshot X. No, it’s CleanShot X. Yeah, sure.

Charles-Olivier:
And it’s really powerful, I think.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Matthias:
other than that, another tool, well, maybe a password manager; 1Password or LastPass, Bit Garden or this kind of stuff.

Matthias:
Yeah, 1Password also.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah.

Matthias:
So, this would be–

Charles-Olivier:
These are my – oops, sorry.

Matthias:
This will be a different idea to explore the tool landscape; typical software development tools, productivity tools, calendar tools. For example, I’m a user of SavvyCal, because I’m podcast recording and SavvyCal is very good for agreeing on a date and time for a podcast.

So, this could be an idea exploring the tool landscape on their computers. Imagine they knew that and then trying to find those tools on Twitter. Look at the followers; who’s following them; like CleanShot X, for example again. And who might be using the the word “Entrepreneur” or the word “Founder” or “Entrepreneurship” or something like that.

And then if you intersect those two audiences, you might find your audience to say, “Okay, I’m looking for software developers who are also talking about entrepreneurship or about lean startup or about Eric Reid and so on.” So, intersecting all these audiences could help you find more of your SaaS founder audience.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay. And do you have any tools to suggest like to – Maybe I’m too early with this question – but do you have any tool to track this kind of information or basically using the Twitter web app and doing this kind of search on there?

Matthias:
In the beginning, I simply use Twitter Advanced Search.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay.

Matthias:
When you search something, there’s another button that says, “Enter Advanced Search”, and there you can say, “Okay, I want to search for tweets mentioning that person and having more than 20 retweets or more than 20 likes and using these or those keywords.”

And after a while, I got a little frustrated because this is all hand. This is all manual stuff. And then I created Get the Audience, of course, my own SaaS that does the query for me. It runs every night, every 24 hours, and delivers new tweets to me next morning. And an email says, “Hey, you have got new findings here, new hits!”

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, okay. But I was more thinking because, yeah, Get the Audience, I think I’ve tried it, and it’s really amazing. But I’m talking more about like to talk with people; are you using the Twitter web app or you were mostly using other things?

Matthias:
Yeah, I’m using the Twitter web app or for some time, I was really using TweetDeck a lot.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, yeah.

Matthias:
Because TweetDeck allows me to see in real time all these developments going on, on Twitter. And also, the query facilities of TweetDeck are pretty strong. So, yeah, I went out to contact them, either by a normal reply or by DM. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay, I’m going to have a look at TweetDeck because I think, like you said, you can have like multiple columns and see everything happen the real time. So, it’s going to be interesting to like to – Well, I’m asking you another question.

Matthias:
Sure. Why not?

Charles-Olivier:
Do you have any advice about do you need to be the first to reply to a tweet or it’s more – How can I say that? You’re better to take time to reply with a good reply, or you need to be the first to reply?

Matthias:
Both are valid strategies. For example, when it’s really a big account I’m replying to, then it’s good to have one initial idea and be fast. And maybe in the third or fourth tweet, I can add more value after thinking about it. If it’s not so much traffic, let’s say if per day people, five people are replying, I can think more about it, if it’s not so fast.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay, so it’s really depends on the people you’re talking with.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Cool.

Matthias:
Yeah, and what I find is I have a little difficulty to think about whom did I already ask what? If you contact a lot of people, after a while, you get a little confused, and, “Did I meet them already? Didn’t I meet them?” And even if I see them in my DMs, I forgot in which state I was, “Did I already asked them for this or for that?” or “Did I propose my idea?” or “Didn’t I do that yet?”

Charles-Olivier:
That’s difficult. Yeah.

Matthias:
“Did they agree or did they deny?” So, this is what I’m currently building a feature; like a little small CRM for Twitter.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay? Inside Get the Audience?

Matthias:
Yeah, inside, Get the Audience.

Charles-Olivier:
Oh, that’s really cool.

Matthias:
That keeps track for this for me.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, it’s kind of a first. Yeah. Like basically, on Twitter, when you – It’s really like a CRM tool you need, but apply to Twitter. So, that’s really interesting that you’re building something like that.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Really interesting.

Matthias:
Returning to your audience. In pre-Covid times, there were conferences where people went. These days we have virtual conferences, like on Zoom or in Discord or in Slack or whatever. Do we know some examples where the SaaS people would go?

Charles-Olivier:
A tool that I figured out on Twitter that is getting a lot of traction, I think, or maybe because I’m following those persons, but it’s Vercel. They are developing Vercel and NextJS. And every time I go on Twitter, I see something about them. Like the past month, they were like – not acquired – How can I say that? They go take some employees from big company or like the last one, they take the founder of {indistinct}. And I think it’s the last guy they take.

Well, basically, to answer your question at first. Yeah, Vercel are good in the developer community and the SaaS founder. And most SaaS founders are going to their platform, I think. So, one months ago, I don’t remember correctly. But yeah, they were having the conference call NextJS conf. It was in November, I think. And yeah, there is a lot of people attending this. But I don’t know if before pre-Covid, it was in person. I think , they were less in the shadow.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
There weren’t a lot of people talking about them. But yeah, now they’ve done a conference through Zoom. No, it was not Zoom. Well, a web platform. And it was kind of cool.

But for me, if I go more, just to make the comparison. When I went to the conference from Apple in 2016, it was like really interesting. I liked to be in the room and applause…

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
It’s like this kind of vibe that’s going on. I think it’s difficult to replicate into virtual conference. So, I think it’s different. But well, we need to do this because we don’t have any other options. So, that’s really cool.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Those events are still happening. But yeah.

I think, to go back to your question, like Vercel going to virtual because they have like a really good feature, and they are really focusing on developer experience. So, I think they’re getting those kinds of people in their event, watching to them to be like excited about the new feature they are releasing and creating a hype on Twitter also and building that audience, I think.

Matthias:
Ah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah.

Matthias:
So, this could also be an idea to look who follows Vercel, who follows NextJS. I’m using NextJS as well for my frontend in my website. So, maybe SaaS founders also hang out where NextJS is offering something.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, that’s something I did not think about. Like to go see the follower from bigger and see.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
That’s something I did not think about, but that seems like a good idea. Because these people like me are following Vercel. Like if me, I’m following Vercel, there must be a lot of other people in the situation similar to me who are following Vercel. And then those kind of people I’m interested to talk about. So, yeah, that’s kind of a really good suggestion. I’d like to engage with people that have the same interest as me.

Matthias:
That’s right.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, that’s true.

Matthias:
And how about competitors? Recently, I was searching for – Somebody said, “I want to build a new video platform” and I said, “Hey, you want to compete with Zoom?” “No, no. All the people are complaining about Zoom, so I want to make it better.” I said, “What? Okay?”

And I did a simple search of searching for people who have pain with Zoom, right? So, I did a search. Search people who talk to Zoom using the words pain, frustration, disappointed, something like that; all these negative things. And really, some tweets were showing up, saying, “Oh, this doesn’t work. That doesn’t work.”

So, also, a competitor search could be an option to think about which other feedback tools are on the market. And maybe there are some feedback tools who are a little older. And where people start to have problems with.

So, if anybody is commenting negatively about a competitor of yours, this would be an opportunity for you to say, “Hey, maybe they have overlooked something. Maybe I can do something special to be better than them.”

Charles-Olivier:
Yes, that’s true.

Matthias:
This should also be an idea.

Charles-Olivier:
Okay, like, hey, like do competitor search? Yeah, that might be a good idea, too, because you can see why people are complaining. And if I already have a solution, well, that’s good. And other than that, I can think about it and say, “Oh, I should build this feature because of other people.” If I’m able to go take like one percent of those people that are complaining, that’s kind of good too. So, yeah.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And also, those kinds of things, like you said on Twitter. So, that’s the same strategy; you’d reply to them, DM and engage with them later. That’s right.

Matthias:
Yeah, lots of opportunities there, because especially with older companies, they have become tied to a certain market. They are doing things in a certain way. And fresh people like you who come new into a market, they can think differently. The older guys cannot because they have to move all their people around. This doesn’t work.

Charles-Olivier:
Their velocity is different from those compared with mine.

Matthias:
Yeah, I remember JIRA and Trello, for example. JIRA was the big one; the established, the elephant, and Trello was the new one. And suddenly Trello was, hey, they were going faster. And after a while, I acquired them for, I think, 400 million bucks. So, this is a pretty substantial amount of money.

Charles-Olivier:
A pretty good deal. Yeah, that’s true.

Matthias:
So, maybe if you can poke your competitors enough, maybe they will buy you.

Charles-Olivier:
You have 400 million for me.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Maybe not 400, but yeah.

Matthias:
This would be good.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, I’d just while talking money, another thing, I think, a lot of people or SaaS developer or founder, are having a look at on Twitter. It’s MicroAquire.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
I don’t know if you know what MicroAquire is. So, I think that’s another audience that I can like to apply the same strategy as we stated before. Those people are building a SaaS and they’re planning to sell their SaaS after. So, basically, they are people like me, SaaS developers, SaaS founder, any name they call themselves, but after that they plan to sell. So, if they’re following MicroAquire, I think that’s – Like I’m following them. So, that’s kind of people, too, that are in the same interest as me. MicroAquire, too, is a good company. Yeah.

Matthias:
Interesting, MicroAquire. Yeah, I wasn’t following them yet because I thought, “Oh, let’s wait until my system does something meaningful, and then I can think about things like these.” I also need some really more MRR or annual revenue to think about.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, before.

Matthias:
Before I can sell the business for –

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah. They released a tool. I don’t know if it’s a new tool or not, but it’s called MicroMRR. And that’s pretty cool because it automatically connects to your Stripe account and that can show you what is the average that you could sell your application.

Matthias:
Oh, interesting!

Charles-Olivier: So, if you do it of my application with 10MRR by a month, it suggests with the churn I have and all this kind of stuff. But that might be like by false data because I’m like two months old. So, I have a lot other to look to, like the churn, retention and all this kind of stuff. I have data with that. But it will be able to estimate your application, what is the average price.

So, for example, for me, they told me I could be able, well, I could. It’s nothing.

Matthias:
Yeah, it’s not certain.

Charles-Olivier:
But between a hundred sixty-seven and four hundred, something like that. So, that’s the price they gave me. And it’s really cool. That’s a tool really cool. Like to get an estimation of your SaaS valuation. So, if you eventually plan to sell, “Oh, maybe I can sell in between $200 and…” Yeah, that’s cool.

Matthias:
Interesting. Well, I always thought that a good estimate would be three times annual revenue. For example, if you have 10 bucks a month, it’s 120 per year. It makes three times or 360 for the purchase price.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
I think that’s the simple formula, but behind that, what they’re doing is like with the churn and all this kind of stuff.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
They’re gathering more data. But yeah, the easy way to calculate – That’s what I was doing – like you just told. So, yeah.

Matthias:
Yeah, nice. To get to the future a little bit, what do you think, if Feedback Farm really takes off, where do you want to be? Where can you be? Where can you imagine that you are, one year from now or two years from now?

Charles-Olivier:
Hmm. That’s a really good question. I did not think about this at first. But let me just follow up. Currently, I have a day-to-day job that I’m really enjoying and really liking. So, I’m planning to stay there for a couple, next year, of course.

o, what I will like to do with Feedback Farm is, yeah, of course, if tomorrow morning the apps gain to a thousand users, maybe it’s my answer is going to be different. But as of now, we’ve two users. I’m planning to continue on growing this user base, of course, because that’s what I like, of course.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And to be able like – How can I tell this? If in a year, what I will like to do in 2022, my goal in 2022, should be like I want to do, for example, a thousand ARR, maybe; something like that.

Matthias:
Mm hmm. A thousand per year.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, I thousand a year, maybe or something like that. So, I don’t want to make a lot of – Well, if I make a lot of money with that, I will be happier.

Matthias:
You wouldn’t protest, right?

Charles-Olivier:
No, that’s right. But I’m not doing this to live. So, that’s okay for me, if the app is not going well or it’s going well. Well, I want the app to go well, but it’s not going to be my – My life will not end if the app fails or something like that.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And of course, I’m going to the goal to make money with that and to scale normally. So, I would like to be able to bootstrap the app and to gather a lot of money from that. And of course, the app to be running by itself. The app running itself and to gather like money on the side.

So, it’s going to be like more, for me, it’s more on the side money, if I can say. It’s not my primary income. So, it’s side income, if I might say.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, my goal of that, so – But if you ask me to repeat the question, what is your goal in next year? I don’t have a direct answer, but to get like – At first, my goal was to make $1 in 2021.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, now my next goal that I’ve put in my Twitter bio is to make 20MRR. I’m not able to say MRR correctly. Am I saying it correctly?

Matthias:
MRR, yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
My French accent is battling with the MRR. But yeah, so I think like for me, a really interesting goal is, I think, is to make a hundred MRR by the end of next year. So, in 2022, if I make a $100 a month, I’m going to be like, “That’s my goal for next year, if I can say”.

Matthias:
Okay.

Charles-Olivier:
So, if I do this, it’s going to bring me, like you say, a hundred a month. It’s going to be like a thousand two hundred and something like that.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, I will be more than happy to have it. If it’s a bigger number, well, I will be happier. But if I put myself – I think it’s a reasonable goal because I want to put like some reasonable goal. So, as of right now, my current MRR is like $10 a month.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
And on my Twitter bio, it said 20MRR is the goal. So, when the 20 will be reached, I’m going to probably jump this limit to 40. And when the 40 is reached, I’m 60, 80, 100.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Because I see a lot of people doing like $20 jump, but more like my goal is 10 thousand by the end of the year or something like that.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
I think it’s really good to have those kinds of goal. But in my situation, I’m doing this on my time, in the evening.

Matthias:
Yeah, in the spare time. Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Yeah, exactly, the spare time.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, it’s not something like if I say I want to do 10 thousand a month, of course, if I’m doing this on my day-to-day job, maybe that’s something I can do. But in my current situation, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that. And maybe tomorrow I will see another thing, but as of right now, my current goal for 2021, if I do 100MRR, I’m going to be really happy.

So, I think I just figure out my goal with you right now.

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
Next year, I want to do 100MRR a month. And that’s going to be my goal.

Matthias:
Wow.

Charles-Olivier:
So, maybe I can apply my Twitter bio, like instead of 20, I can just say, “Oh, my goal is 100 a month by the end of 2022.”

Matthias:
Yeah.

Charles-Olivier:
So, yeah, I think I’m going to do that after the show.

Matthias:
Interesting. Interesting. I am a little about – Sorry?

Charles-Olivier:
No, I was going to say you bring a really interesting thought in my mind. My mind is like, “Oh, what do I need to do?” Blah blah blah. I’m thinking…

Matthias:
Yeah, that’s good.

Charles-Olivier:
So, that’s very interesting.

Matthias:
Yeah, that’s the whole point of these coaching calls; to inspire people and to make them able to act more. Yeah, I want you to succeed. Absolutely.

Charles-Olivier:
That’s cool.

Matthias:
Nice. So, I was very happy you were here today with me. You bring such a good sense of humor into the conversation. I really enjoyed it. And I wish you very much success with Feedback Farm, Charles-Olivier.

Charles-Olivier:
Thank you so much. I really enjoy joining you in your episode. So, we’ll keep in touch.

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Outro

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